Communication Skills and Business English for Employment

[00:00:05] You are listening to ESL Talk, a podcast made for English teachers by English teachers.

[00:00:28] Hello everyone and welcome to another brand new episode of ESL Talk and I'm joined today by my co-host Daniel.

[00:00:35] Hello, thank you.

[00:00:37] And we will be talking about something more specific today. So we're diving into the world of business English for employment.

[00:00:46] And it's really interesting today, right, Daniel? Because we're not talking to a teacher or an ESL student.

[00:00:53] Yes, this is nice because we are going to get some insights on kind of the journey that someone would be doing upon graduating university.

[00:01:01] So if you work with grad students, students who have just finished university, students who have moved to a new country, they're in a workplace where they need English,

[00:01:08] they maybe live in other countries and need it. There's a lot of scope and a lot of applications that will really help our listeners today.

[00:01:15] They hopefully learn a little bit more about this. So yeah, our guest Asia is going to join us.

[00:01:20] She's actually living proof of how you can really develop your confidence and your business skills.

[00:01:25] So it's going to be really interesting to speak with her. But I know you've got quite a bit of experience with business English, Faye.

[00:01:31] So what have you found makes business English different from just like standalone ESL or maybe EEP or test preparation?

[00:01:39] Like why and what is the difference with business English?

[00:01:42] Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting because I kind of did the reverse. A lot of people start teaching business English later in their careers.

[00:01:50] They teach general English first. And I actually from the beginning, I was working for a school that taught business English in company.

[00:01:58] So inside the company that we were hired for. And it was really interesting for me to even work out those differences myself at the beginning.

[00:02:07] They still need that base of English, right? Business English students. But often they already have that.

[00:02:13] Most of my students would come. They already knew how to speak English.

[00:02:16] They had that fluency or the communication for that. But business English is so unique in the register and, and, you know, the level of formality.

[00:02:26] And it's, it's so situational, I would say.

[00:02:30] Yes. Yes. Context is really important because there's a lot of different potential situations that our students might be in.

[00:02:38] So we need to kind of help them with that.

[00:02:40] So, because I find as well, a lot of students that I've worked with, a lot of clients I've worked with, they are like, well, I've had English classes, but it doesn't really help me do my job.

[00:02:48] Or like, it's too general. It's not like specified.

[00:02:51] So, you know, there's a lot of business English teachers who will teach general stuff, which has value, but it's like, I work in HR, so I need HR specific stuff.

[00:02:59] Or I work in finance, so I need finance specific stuff.

[00:03:02] So that is one thing I've found to be a little bit different and unique is when I'm creating materials and lessons and sessions, I try to tailor it to that job or to that field.

[00:03:12] Because general is, is useful. It has a value, but sometimes it can be too general.

[00:03:17] Yeah. Because business English is very broad if you think about it, like you said.

[00:03:20] Yeah. But I find that it also, yeah, students will need, let's say, formal English for certain meetings, but then depending on their job, it might be a more casual type of meeting.

[00:03:31] Exactly. And more one-on-one, more groups. So yeah, like I said, tailoring is everything.

[00:03:36] And we've talked about this a lot here, knowing your students.

[00:03:38] And again, like most, I wouldn't say all, but a lot of business English students, they have generally a high level of English anyway.

[00:03:44] So you're kind of, you know, the very lowest dealing with high B1, B2 level up to C1 level.

[00:03:50] So again, you have to really look at giving them what they need at the right level.

[00:03:55] And the gaps.

[00:03:56] And to fill in those gaps. Exactly. Yeah.

[00:03:58] So how have you exposed students to real life business English, real life scenarios?

[00:04:03] Like have you done that through the full skills, reading, listening, speaking, writing?

[00:04:07] How do you do that or how have you done that?

[00:04:09] Yeah. I find that that's actually really important for us to do, to guide them through it.

[00:04:14] Because I've had so many students who are completely fluent, like we said, but when they're speaking,

[00:04:19] they're speaking English that they've learned from movies and TV shows.

[00:04:23] Exactly.

[00:04:24] And again, it's not appropriate.

[00:04:26] It's that level of the register, how appropriate it is.

[00:04:29] And so I started kind of, okay, you like learning from TV shows.

[00:04:34] So instead of watching these shows, let's watch something that's a little more relevant.

[00:04:39] So shows like suits, if they work in an office.

[00:04:44] Right?

[00:04:44] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:04:45] And also as a way to teach them, okay, maybe you can watch something, a little segment in class.

[00:04:50] And she'll see here, they're having a private conversation.

[00:04:52] How did that change when they went into a meeting or when they went into negotiations or something like that?

[00:05:00] And books.

[00:05:01] So real business books, like with real English, not catering to students, ESL students.

[00:05:10] So books about finances or whatever their world is.

[00:05:15] Because they usually have some knowledge of the language in their field in English.

[00:05:19] Right?

[00:05:19] So go with that.

[00:05:21] TED Talks are another really good way to prep them for that kind of, if they have to give presentations.

[00:05:27] Right?

[00:05:27] Yeah.

[00:05:28] How about you?

[00:05:28] Do you have any other suggestions?

[00:05:30] I always like to try to use, like you said, movies, TV shows, little clips here and there.

[00:05:36] But I also really like to get interviews from real people in real jobs.

[00:05:42] So finding news articles can be really good.

[00:05:44] Like a new company opened or a new product or a new service.

[00:05:49] So that can be really nice because you're seeing people in a natural environment doing the functions and talking about what they do.

[00:05:55] So I really found that to be quite helpful depending on where they live.

[00:05:58] So like when I lived in Vancouver, for example, we'd use news reports from local news for listening, which would be great.

[00:06:05] And then also videos.

[00:06:06] Again, what's going on in here?

[00:06:07] What do we see?

[00:06:08] What are they talking about?

[00:06:10] That can be a really nice way to expose them to that professional tone and vocabulary as well.

[00:06:15] I'll get into some mistakes that students make when using it because some of the mistakes can be understandable.

[00:06:21] But also we can kind of predict them and try to minimize them.

[00:06:24] So I work with one client who works in a bank and someone came in and she said, oh, I need the bills.

[00:06:32] Where are the bills?

[00:06:33] Referring to paper money.

[00:06:34] But she was like, oh, there's nobody here called Bill.

[00:06:37] Like who's Bill?

[00:06:37] I don't know anyone called Bill.

[00:06:39] Because again, she wasn't used to that term bills being used for money.

[00:06:44] And then just small things with pronunciation, UK versus USA versus Canada versus Australia.

[00:06:52] Or vocabulary, like you said, like bill versus check.

[00:06:54] Right.

[00:06:55] Again, another situation with that same client who works in a bank.

[00:06:59] She was from Hong Kong, but she was using British pronunciation.

[00:07:04] So she was saying, oh, this is located in another branch as opposed to branch.

[00:07:08] So again, people would misunderstand and mishear.

[00:07:12] And what are you trying to say?

[00:07:13] It created some issues.

[00:07:14] So again, just conditioning students to the environment that they might work in.

[00:07:19] Little things like that, little nuances, little differences, because they can make a huge difference.

[00:07:23] I mean, the most common one that we always joke about is like washroom versus bathroom versus toilet.

[00:07:29] Yeah, restroom.

[00:07:30] Restroom.

[00:07:30] So this can be a little bit confusing as well.

[00:07:33] So there's a lot of local differences, a lot of international differences within English.

[00:07:40] And we talked about world English so many times.

[00:07:43] But something that might be appropriate in one situation or even one kind of world.

[00:07:50] Yeah.

[00:07:50] Or one kind of industry might not be another one as well.

[00:07:53] Like, you know, we don't want to go, we don't want to label.

[00:07:56] But, you know, you have manufacturing versus technical versus, you know, outdoor jobs versus working with children.

[00:08:03] Trades.

[00:08:04] Yeah.

[00:08:04] Yeah.

[00:08:05] So people might expect different levels of professionalism, different levels of communication.

[00:08:09] So these all kind of tie in as well.

[00:08:12] Any mistakes or any common threads that you noticed?

[00:08:14] I remember now, as you mentioned, when you were mentioning those, that when I was teaching

[00:08:19] in company that I had a student who came in and she was really distressed because she worked

[00:08:24] in the financial department.

[00:08:27] And in Portuguese, in Brazil, when you do, when you write a number like a thousand, instead

[00:08:32] of using the comma for the thousand, we use a period.

[00:08:36] Right.

[00:08:36] And she was inputting numbers into the computer for like payments.

[00:08:42] And she used, and we use, sorry, we use the comma as a decimal in Portuguese.

[00:08:47] And so she put a comma.

[00:08:50] It was supposed to be, let's say, a hundred dollars and 50 cents, but she wrote a hundred

[00:08:56] comma five zero and it turned into a hundred thousand.

[00:09:00] Oh no.

[00:09:01] And then the payment went through, something happened and it was a really big mistake in

[00:09:07] this case.

[00:09:07] I can imagine.

[00:09:08] And it's a language thing at the end of the day.

[00:09:10] So, and it's interesting because the material I was using at the time to teach my low level

[00:09:16] business English students did have a unit, a lesson on that, on numbers and decimals

[00:09:21] and all that.

[00:09:23] And I remember thinking, this is easy.

[00:09:24] It's the same in every language, but I didn't realize, oh no, actually it's not.

[00:09:28] That we have different counting systems, grouping in two and three and four commas, the way we

[00:09:33] label things.

[00:09:34] It's very, very confusing for sure.

[00:09:36] So it's a good lesson in that too, that it's like, it's not as simple as straightforward

[00:09:41] as you may think.

[00:09:43] So it's, again, you have to really get to know your students and see what they deal with

[00:09:47] every day in their own language so that you can transfer those skills into English.

[00:09:51] It's a great message because I know we kind of touched on it already, but you know, a

[00:09:55] lot of teachers will want to help and get into business English because it's a great

[00:09:58] niche and a great field to teach.

[00:09:59] But again, you have to really ultra personalize it and make it ultra relevant to your learner

[00:10:05] or to your learners to make sure they're getting the most out of it and thinking about their

[00:10:08] situation.

[00:10:09] And I know Asia is going to get into some of those suggestions from her experience as well.

[00:10:14] So let's get into today's interview with Asia.

[00:10:16] Yeah.

[00:10:27] Hello, Asia.

[00:10:28] So happy to have you here with us today.

[00:10:31] Hi, Faye.

[00:10:32] Thank you so much for having me.

[00:10:34] Yeah, we're really excited to get into today's topic.

[00:10:37] We're going to be talking about communication skills and business English for employment.

[00:10:41] And we want to get started just by learning a little bit more about your journey, Asia.

[00:10:45] So could you share your journey to becoming a SAP consultant at IBM and your journey to becoming

[00:10:50] president of the Dalhousie Consulting Association?

[00:10:54] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:10:55] For those of you who don't know, so SAP is an ERP system, which is a huge software system

[00:11:03] where you have a company and it basically maintains and organizes all the different aspects

[00:11:10] of a company from finance to human capital to resources and logistics management all in

[00:11:17] one place.

[00:11:17] So this is very helpful with any sort of large organization.

[00:11:22] Personally, I'm not a technical person.

[00:11:26] However, my first job ever was as a tech salesperson at Staples.

[00:11:31] I would sell laptops and printers and all sorts of different computers.

[00:11:38] And, you know, I was 15 years old, but I ended up really enjoying it and I became very good

[00:11:45] at it. This was when I kind of realized that all skills can be learned.

[00:11:51] And if I was able to learn about technology on a small level, you know, like I'm learning

[00:11:57] how to sell a laptop.

[00:11:58] In essence, it's not that different from learning how to sell a huge multimillion dollar software

[00:12:04] system.

[00:12:05] And IBM is one of the top tech companies in the world.

[00:12:09] So when I saw the application for it, I decided to go ahead.

[00:12:12] It was a long, complicated process.

[00:12:15] It required a lot of connections and networking and LinkedIn reach outs and coffee chatting.

[00:12:22] But I mean, overall, it ended up working out and I'm really happy it did because I'm enjoying

[00:12:27] it and having a great time so far.

[00:12:28] And as for my journey to becoming president of the Dalhousie Consulting Association, it's

[00:12:34] a university society where students basically who share students who share collective interest

[00:12:41] in consulting, you know, attend events, learn, and of course, network.

[00:12:48] When I first started at Dalhousie, I really wanted to figure out what I wanted to do with

[00:12:54] my Bachelor of Commerce degree.

[00:12:57] Initially, I joined everything.

[00:12:58] I was a member of like the finance committee and I attended marketing events and I attended

[00:13:04] accounting events.

[00:13:05] I had no idea what I wanted to do.

[00:13:08] When it came time to look for co-ops, I came across a few different consulting opportunities

[00:13:12] and I ended up fumbling quite a few case interviews for big four firms.

[00:13:19] It was horrible.

[00:13:20] Anyone who's been through a case interview knows it's a really difficult and complex process.

[00:13:27] And I didn't know much about consulting at all at this point.

[00:13:30] So I thought it would be a good opportunity to try and learn more, improve myself so that

[00:13:34] if I come across another one, I know how to tackle it.

[00:13:39] I found out about the Dalhousie Consulting Association and applied to become an executive

[00:13:44] member my second year.

[00:13:45] So I served as the vice president of marketing and I did really enjoy the role.

[00:13:50] I kind of made a point to take on leadership positions and roles within the team.

[00:13:55] Like I took charge of planning events and creating opportunities in the society.

[00:13:59] And then eventually when the previous president graduated, the presidency kind of fell on to

[00:14:06] me and then I took over.

[00:14:08] So right now I'm in my third year at Dalhousie University.

[00:14:11] I'm president of the Dalhousie Consulting Association and I'm currently completing my

[00:14:15] second work term at IBM as an SAP consultant intern.

[00:14:20] So that's a little bit about myself and how I got here.

[00:14:22] Wow.

[00:14:23] That's really interesting.

[00:14:24] Yeah, it's a great message, you know, for our listeners, you know, for those who are

[00:14:28] working as teachers, like try to connect, try to network, get yourself out there.

[00:14:32] And it's a great message as well, you know, for the students that we might work with that

[00:14:36] there are lots of opportunities out there to grow, to network, to develop your skills,

[00:14:40] to develop your communication skills and to, you know, be a more confident person, not just

[00:14:46] through the way you communicate, but through the kinds of things that you want to do that

[00:14:50] you're interested in.

[00:14:50] And yeah, and a little secret, I did have a great opportunity to work with Asia.

[00:14:55] So I know how amazing she is and how she's leveraged all these great communication skills

[00:14:59] to be where she is today.

[00:15:01] So that's great.

[00:15:02] Thank you for the intro.

[00:15:03] Yeah.

[00:15:04] And I mean, it's a great point you touched on too, Asia, about like you fumbled some interviews

[00:15:09] and how you had to sort of like develop those communication skills yourself.

[00:15:13] Thinking now a little bit about the role of those communication skills in your daily

[00:15:18] responsibilities as a student and an intern.

[00:15:21] How important are those for you now?

[00:15:25] And this could be a really good example of how important they would be for some of our

[00:15:28] students learning business English too.

[00:15:31] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:15:32] In my experience, I found that communication is probably one of the most important skills

[00:15:37] you can have.

[00:15:39] You know, as a student, I'm constantly emailing professors.

[00:15:42] I work in teams for group projects.

[00:15:45] And, you know, I speak out in lectures and ask questions and do presentations.

[00:15:50] So in student, as a student, especially in business, I find that this is something you're

[00:15:54] like skills you're leveraging all the time.

[00:15:56] And as an intern, I'd say I use communication even more so.

[00:16:00] So, you know, you mess it like I during the day I message, you know, peers and leaders.

[00:16:06] And I also work on producing written content for proposals, for slideshows and client documentation.

[00:16:14] You know, being able to communicate effectively is essential in business and just in the world

[00:16:19] in general.

[00:16:21] And, you know, this really comes into play when you're working in teams or with other people,

[00:16:26] which is almost all the time.

[00:16:28] Um, for example, if I'm not asking for clarification on tasks clearly, um, it's very easy to waste

[00:16:36] my own time and other people's time.

[00:16:39] Um, you know, somebody might have to review my work, which I did incorrectly.

[00:16:43] And if learning how to do it properly and learning how to communicate clearly is probably, um,

[00:16:49] one of the best ways to excel in this type of industry.

[00:16:52] And it's a skill I make use of every single day.

[00:16:55] That's a great message.

[00:16:56] And this is a really great insight for our listeners because a lot of our, a lot of our

[00:17:00] listeners, a lot of teachers, they work with business people, with people who use English

[00:17:03] a lot for their professional work.

[00:17:05] And they don't always understand like, well, what, what kind of things are you actually

[00:17:08] doing?

[00:17:09] Like what kind of skills do you actually need to improve?

[00:17:11] And obviously communication is the most important, but also this is a really good insight

[00:17:15] into ways that teachers can help their students, especially with business English as well.

[00:17:19] So this is amazing.

[00:17:20] Um, could you tell us a little bit more about how important business English is for the consulting

[00:17:25] industry, especially for non-native speakers?

[00:17:27] Cause I know you work with people from all backgrounds or walks of life, many different

[00:17:31] cultures and nationalities.

[00:17:33] So how important is it for what you're doing and what you will be doing in the future?

[00:17:37] Yeah, for sure.

[00:17:39] Um, I mean, like I just mentioned, I find that a lot of the work I do does revolve around

[00:17:44] communication, especially in the consulting industry.

[00:17:46] Um, and you know, because you're communicating with peers and leaders, it's really key on understanding

[00:17:54] how to speak professionally.

[00:17:56] Um, and in professional settings, business English is the most suitable form of communication

[00:18:00] and the best way to really, uh, you know, make an impression.

[00:18:04] I find, um, it's not too formal, it's not too casual and you're kind of conducting casual

[00:18:09] conversations, maybe with a little bit more elevated vocabulary or occasionally like,

[00:18:14] company jargon.

[00:18:15] Um, and recently I was speaking with a mentor of mine.

[00:18:18] Um, he actually has been learning French as a second language.

[00:18:22] He is fluent, but he did tell me about how he really does struggle, um, with speaking French

[00:18:29] in a professional setting, just because it's so much different than a typical flow of a conversation

[00:18:34] he might have in a casual setting.

[00:18:36] Um, you know, tones, cues, expressions, and vocabulary are all much different in the workplace than they

[00:18:43] would be in a casual conversation.

[00:18:45] Um, you know, I think this is a very key skill that needs to be taught to non-native speakers,

[00:18:52] especially, um, those in business, because I mean, like we established it is essential.

[00:18:59] Um, and I, I don't actually argue it's a skill that needs to be taught on top of regular English.

[00:19:05] Um, it, it's, uh, it's very vital and, um, business English is what you'd want to be using every

[00:19:13] single day.

[00:19:14] Um, so it's key for individuals who are learning English to, uh, really focus on mastering the

[00:19:21] business language, whether that be lingo or like I said, jargon.

[00:19:25] Um, yeah, I think it's, I think it's necessary.

[00:19:30] Yeah, that's a great point because I think that one of the most challenging things for

[00:19:35] students and teachers is to find that happy medium.

[00:19:39] Like you said, you know, not too formal, not too informal, because business English is almost

[00:19:44] like a thing of its own on its own.

[00:19:46] And on top of everything they're learning about English.

[00:19:49] Right.

[00:19:49] So hearing from somebody like you can really help them to realize, okay, what are the specific

[00:19:56] things I need?

[00:19:57] For example, for a job interview or an internship interview in, in, in your case and the application

[00:20:03] process, can you maybe share some tips, um, of how these students can effectively communicate

[00:20:09] during an internship interview or through the application process from what you've seen?

[00:20:13] Yeah, for sure.

[00:20:14] I mean, one thing that I make a point to do is I like to speak as clearly and concisely

[00:20:19] as possible.

[00:20:21] Um, it's not always great to sound overly formal, um, may being able to maintain a friendly

[00:20:26] conversation flow, um, you know, is makes it more relatable to the person you're talking

[00:20:31] to and, you know, shows that maybe you do have like a bit more of a personality, um,

[00:20:36] which is something that employers do look for.

[00:20:38] Um, I think the main thing that helps me is just to speak confidently.

[00:20:41] I've learned through time and through experience that, you know, speaking with confidence and

[00:20:45] having some faith in yourself will always sound better than, you know, speaking nerd,

[00:20:49] like speaking, um, very nervously, speaking hesitantly, um, you know, confidence I think

[00:20:55] is key, um, you know, clarity and being very direct.

[00:20:59] Um, these are all important things, um, leveraging business communication skills.

[00:21:04] It helped me land my first internship.

[00:21:07] Um, it was also with IBM, just with a different team.

[00:21:10] This was the federal sales team.

[00:21:12] So they were responsible for selling services directly to the government.

[00:21:16] Um, once I had been hired, I asked my manager for feedback on my interview and she didn't

[00:21:21] tell me that, um, one of the reasons why I was successful in landing the job was because

[00:21:26] I was able to verbalize my internal problem solving processes in the interview.

[00:21:32] Interviewers I find will often ask complex situational questions or deliberately ask misleading questions

[00:21:39] so that they can kind of assess your thinking patterns and communication abilities.

[00:21:42] And in my case, they were looking for someone who was very creative with big ideas and a strong

[00:21:48] problem solving ability.

[00:21:50] So knowing this, when they would ask me questions, even when I was uncertain, I would make a point

[00:21:56] to list my processes like step by step.

[00:22:00] Um, I didn't prioritize coming to the correct answer.

[00:22:03] I prioritized communicating my thoughts.

[00:22:05] Um, I was very procedural with it.

[00:22:07] Um, for example, I'd say first I would, and then I would, instead of just saying the answer

[00:22:14] directly, I would really make a point to talk through it so that they understood exactly

[00:22:17] what I was thinking.

[00:22:18] Um, and how I tackle these complex issues.

[00:22:22] And, you know, I think one of the things you shouldn't do is just give the answer directly.

[00:22:27] It's always important to talk through questions in an interview, um, so that the interviewer

[00:22:32] can actually understand your thinking path and your way of thinking.

[00:22:36] Exactly.

[00:22:37] Yeah, that's a great point.

[00:22:38] Yeah.

[00:22:39] You've highlighted, you've highlighted some really important skills here that I know

[00:22:43] a lot of clients and students we work with say the same things like, you know,

[00:22:46] employers are looking for problem solving skills, situational scenarios, like describe

[00:22:51] a time X, Y, Z happened and they want a step-by-step, you know, breakdown of it.

[00:22:56] And again, this is a great strategy for, for, for our listeners, because you can work

[00:23:01] with your students to talk to them about developing strategies, go step-by-step, go

[00:23:05] deeper, think about a process and procedural strategy.

[00:23:08] So it's great to have that firsthand, um, firsthand reference from you here, Asia.

[00:23:13] So thank you for that.

[00:23:13] Mm-hmm.

[00:23:15] Yeah.

[00:23:15] I thought that was really interesting too, because I remember from when I was starting

[00:23:19] to teach and I was teaching business English and it's so easy to fall into those materials

[00:23:24] where it's just like phrases to say in the meeting and, you know, things to say things

[00:23:30] in a CV or a resume.

[00:23:32] But I think that has changed a lot too recently.

[00:23:35] And with the way interviews work and my husband does a lot of interviewing for his position at

[00:23:40] work.

[00:23:41] And yeah, he said exactly what you said.

[00:23:43] It's not about the answer to the question, but it's what your thought process is and how

[00:23:48] you get there.

[00:23:49] So this is something that is sometimes challenging for teachers to teach because it can be very

[00:23:53] cultural thing as well.

[00:23:55] Right?

[00:23:55] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:23:56] Yeah.

[00:23:56] And then thinking of that too, um, what, what have you seen some common communication challenges

[00:24:02] that you have seen or you have faced in your academic and professional roles and how did

[00:24:07] you overcome them?

[00:24:09] So funny enough, um, so my mother is a natural, a national reporter.

[00:24:14] Um, so she, a lot of her job involves, you know, writing and reporting.

[00:24:19] So she's a very strong writer, very strong communicator.

[00:24:22] Um, so I, I do my best to follow in her footsteps.

[00:24:25] Um, but you know, however, I'm not, I wouldn't say as I'm as, um, you know, gifted in writing

[00:24:31] as she is.

[00:24:32] So, you know, I always make sure to run, like run all of my, you know, reports, emails,

[00:24:39] essays by her first before I, before I send it off, before I submit it.

[00:24:44] Um, and out of everyone, I'd say she's probably the biggest critic of my writing style.

[00:24:48] Um, she always tells me that I struggle to get to the point.

[00:24:52] Um, I'd say that personally, this is my biggest communication challenge.

[00:24:56] I tend to be redundant at times and repeat sentences and words that's already been set.

[00:25:01] Um, so I'm doing my best to learn how to be more direct and get to the point and also

[00:25:05] recognize these errors in my own work.

[00:25:08] Um, I found that it's helpful, like once, especially in writing that, you know, once

[00:25:12] I've written, written a paragraph, I take a step back, I read my work again after stepping

[00:25:18] away for a little bit.

[00:25:18] And then, you know, it's important to not be afraid to remove big chunks or sentences,

[00:25:24] uh, where necessary because while you might be kind of attached to this writing, oh, I

[00:25:29] really like it.

[00:25:29] It's not always necessary to have.

[00:25:31] So I've, I've kind of learned how to do that.

[00:25:34] Um, and I'd say that that's something I've really struggled to overcome in terms of communication.

[00:25:39] And this, this is something that mostly follows me in academic roles.

[00:25:43] Yeah, it's really tough.

[00:25:44] I mean, I know from my role working in universities, the amount of times where I've just like

[00:25:48] got so frustrated.

[00:25:49] I'm like, please just get to the point.

[00:25:51] What are you trying to say?

[00:25:52] And I know some of that as well, like, you know, with a quite a wide background of students

[00:25:56] from other countries and cultures, sometimes it's just, you know, the languages are not

[00:26:00] direct.

[00:26:01] They're not, you know, very to the point where other languages are very direct and very to

[00:26:05] the point.

[00:26:05] So again, it, it can be a bit of a challenge and it can be a little bit tricky, but definitely,

[00:26:09] um, you know, having awareness of your writing style and things you do well and things need

[00:26:13] to improve is always really, really important as well.

[00:26:15] Um, when it comes to business English skills specifically and job interviews, as you've

[00:26:20] already kind of mentioned, how can students improve their business English skills?

[00:26:24] What could they do maybe on an independent basis or maybe by themselves or maybe with a little

[00:26:28] bit of input from, from teachers and coaches, what are some things that they could do to

[00:26:31] improve those skills Asia?

[00:26:34] Yeah, immediately three things come to mind.

[00:26:37] I would say, um, doing a lot of reading, preparing notes in advance and practice speaking

[00:26:43] out loud.

[00:26:43] Um, with the speaking, I find that, you know, hearing yourself say words and speak out loud

[00:26:48] helps you listen to yourself and make sure that your responses are good and correct.

[00:26:52] I'll do this when I'm writing.

[00:26:54] I'll do this before presentation.

[00:26:55] I'll do this when I'm speaking.

[00:26:57] Um, just to make sure that, you know, what I'm saying makes sense and that it would sound

[00:27:01] good to somebody if I were taught, like if I were talking in a presentation or whatever

[00:27:05] it is.

[00:27:06] Um, as for the notes, I always like to prepare notes in advance of interviews.

[00:27:11] Um, like I find that laying out my thoughts, make sure that I hit all the necessary points

[00:27:15] and topics that I want to cover and that I'm not forgetting anything.

[00:27:18] And having it written down also allows me to not be stressed about possibly forgetting

[00:27:23] an aspect.

[00:27:24] Um, and for reading, I find that generally strong readers do tend to be better writers.

[00:27:29] Um, so for students looking to improve business English, I would encourage them to read articles,

[00:27:36] read business journals.

[00:27:38] This past week, actually, we had the Dalhousie Consulting Association has brought, had brought

[00:27:42] in a guest speaker and he actually gave us a fantastic book recommendation.

[00:27:47] Um, he is a partner at Deloitte.

[00:27:50] He's highly experienced in consulting and he wanted to offer advice to students.

[00:27:54] Um, something memorable that stuck with me after that, um, that session was he had recommended

[00:28:01] this nonfiction book called The Pyramid Principle by Barbara Minto.

[00:28:05] Um, now Barbara was a consultant in the U.S. for, uh, from the company McKinsey, huge consulting

[00:28:11] firm.

[00:28:12] Um, and she was an expert in executive communication.

[00:28:15] She was also the first female MBA that they had hired at the firm ever.

[00:28:19] And this was, would have been in the sixties.

[00:28:21] Um, so in the, in the book, Barbara describes how to properly structure responses to sound

[00:28:26] as professional as possible and outlines a method.

[00:28:29] Like a piece of pyramid principle, um, on how to, you know, answer questions.

[00:28:35] And me personally, I just started reading it.

[00:28:38] So I'm not really an expert, but so far it has been super helpful.

[00:28:42] So if this is an area of interest or you want to improve your communication, this is definitely

[00:28:46] a book I would recommend giving a read, um, you know, just to further improve your business

[00:28:52] English skills and make sure that, you know, following this method allows you to be more,

[00:28:56] um, clear and concise when speaking.

[00:28:59] Yeah.

[00:29:00] Those are all great tips and very similar to what, uh, VES teachers recommend.

[00:29:04] Um, like you said, like reading makes you a better writer.

[00:29:07] Listening makes you a better speaker often.

[00:29:09] Um, now when it comes to the, like, let's say the confidence, a lot of students may be nervous

[00:29:14] about their communication skills in the professional setting.

[00:29:18] What advice would you give them in, in that case?

[00:29:22] Yeah, this is classic advice, but I'd say it's good advice.

[00:29:25] Nonetheless, um, I've had people tell me this as well, and I do find it to be helpful,

[00:29:29] but I would say fake it till you make it.

[00:29:32] Um, I've actually just too.

[00:29:34] Yeah.

[00:29:37] For sure.

[00:29:38] Um, I've been in many situations where I've had little experience.

[00:29:43] Um, whether that's publicly speaking or even this podcast, for example, I've never been

[00:29:48] on a podcast before.

[00:29:49] Um, I like to apply this advice whenever I'm in new or particularly nerve wracking situations.

[00:29:56] For example, I'm presenting and I feel under rehearsed, or maybe I'm at a networking session

[00:30:00] and I don't know anyone in the room.

[00:30:01] I find that faking confidence does actually lead to real confidence.

[00:30:05] And over time you do get more comfortable in the situation that you're in.

[00:30:08] Um, speaking like, you know, what you're talking about will kind of convince people that you

[00:30:14] are actually knowledgeable, um, and allows you to communicate more smoothly.

[00:30:20] Um, I'd say if you have nerves going into an interview or starting a new job, just put

[00:30:25] some trust in yourself.

[00:30:26] You, you know, you earned it.

[00:30:27] You worked hard to get there.

[00:30:29] Um, and I know a lot of people struggle with imposter syndrome, myself included, but it

[00:30:35] is really important to remember that you are capable and you do deserve these opportunities

[00:30:39] that you're presented with.

[00:30:41] Um, so overall, you know, being confident and having faith in yourself and abilities is

[00:30:47] probably one of the best pieces of advice I can give to someone who's worried about communicating

[00:30:51] in a professional setting.

[00:30:52] Yeah.

[00:30:53] Great tips.

[00:30:54] Wonderful advice here.

[00:30:55] I love this.

[00:30:56] And these are all applicable even for us as teachers and even for the students and clients

[00:31:00] that we work with as well.

[00:31:01] So yeah, absolutely.

[00:31:02] Fake it till you make it.

[00:31:03] That's what I learned a long time ago, Faye.

[00:31:05] I know we, we joke about this all the time.

[00:31:07] Yeah, we do.

[00:31:08] So, um, again, Asia, a lot of our listeners, they might, you know, they're probably, they

[00:31:12] do a lot of work with business, business people, people working for companies, people,

[00:31:16] you know, who have to travel a lot and use English a lot.

[00:31:17] So, um, how could being part of an association like a consulting association in your, your

[00:31:22] instance, how could that enhance people's communication skills and professional network?

[00:31:26] Cause network is also a huge thing that I'm always telling my students get out there and

[00:31:30] network, meet people.

[00:31:31] So how can these help, um, people to improve their skills and improve their confidence?

[00:31:36] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:31:37] Um, just touching on the communication skills aspect first.

[00:31:41] I know a lot of these associations and clubs really prioritize learning opportunities for

[00:31:47] students, um, in terms of, you know, the Dalhousie Consulting Association, that's, you know,

[00:31:53] what I have the most experience with, um, you know, something we work on is increasing the

[00:31:58] number of opportunities for students to develop themselves professionally.

[00:32:01] Um, we'll host case interview workshops and resume building sessions, um, to help students

[00:32:07] get a leg up in, you know, a challenging industry like consulting, for example.

[00:32:12] Um, this kind of helps students, you know, have an advantage, um, in, in terms of getting

[00:32:18] into the industry, but also an advantage when it comes to communicating written and verbally.

[00:32:23] Um, just having that knowledge I find really helps students and we've had really great feedback

[00:32:28] for it as for the networking aspect.

[00:32:31] Um, a lot, I know many student societies are just, you know, these types of clubs in

[00:32:36] general, um, look to grow and improve professional networks of students and members.

[00:32:45] Um, me personally, I've been to all sorts of events.

[00:32:48] Um, I've been to accounting events.

[00:32:49] I've been to marketing events.

[00:32:51] I've been to finance events.

[00:32:52] Um, and so many, there's so many, um, groups out there that look to network for a specific

[00:32:59] purpose.

[00:33:00] Um, I know.

[00:33:02] So, so the Dalhousie Consulting Association has worked with many firms and many tech companies,

[00:33:07] um, will often do an office tour where we bring all the students to an office, um, interact

[00:33:12] with real professionals and hopefully get a sense of what it would be like to work there.

[00:33:16] Um, I, I find that being part of these societies allows for ample opportunities to discover

[00:33:21] what you want to do and help students find their niche, um, as well as prepare individuals

[00:33:26] to enter the workforce with as much as connections as possible.

[00:33:30] So, um, you know, Daniel, what you were saying was absolutely like, I think that's great advice.

[00:33:34] I think everyone should look to improve their network.

[00:33:37] Um, and I feel like these societies and associations and clubs are a great way to do so.

[00:33:43] Yeah, that's great advice.

[00:33:45] Um, which teachers could give to their own students, right.

[00:33:49] To search for those associations.

[00:33:51] Yeah.

[00:33:52] Especially something you don't think about.

[00:33:54] Yeah.

[00:33:54] It's like getting those actual real life experiences and simulating.

[00:33:57] And as a, as a teacher, you know, you could, you could kind of go into there or, you know,

[00:34:01] experience it yourself.

[00:34:02] Okay.

[00:34:02] This is what my students or clients are going to need students.

[00:34:05] Again, can I come and take a tour of an office?

[00:34:07] Can I look around?

[00:34:08] Can I see what it might be like so I can simulate?

[00:34:10] And again, simulation is really important.

[00:34:11] And having those real contexts can really help us build our skills as teachers or as

[00:34:17] students learning about this as well.

[00:34:19] Yeah.

[00:34:19] Yeah.

[00:34:20] Now thinking more specifically about those teachers that might want to support their students

[00:34:23] and communicating more clearly.

[00:34:25] Um, what advice would you give them, especially for those teachers whose English is not their

[00:34:30] first language?

[00:34:33] Yeah.

[00:34:34] So in, in the past, I actually was pretty active in volunteering with new Canadians and refugees.

[00:34:40] Um, one girl in particular kind of stands out to me when I think of, think back of my

[00:34:45] time, um, volunteering.

[00:34:46] Uh, she is a Syrian refugee at the time.

[00:34:49] She knew no English and she was trying to learn English in her late teens.

[00:34:54] Um, she was super quiet, super shy.

[00:34:57] Um, and she was actually quite good at reading and writing in English, but she never really

[00:35:02] wanted to try to speak to me or, um, she was just, it seemed like she was just very afraid.

[00:35:08] Um, I found that it took a lot of encouragement for her to practice English.

[00:35:11] I think because she was older, she may have been a little bit more self-conscious, whereas

[00:35:15] her younger siblings were more eager, um, and willing to practice their English.

[00:35:20] I would say that it's very important that ESL students, um, practicing their speaking

[00:35:26] know that mistakes are normal and okay.

[00:35:29] And that when they are practicing this new language, that there's no judgment.

[00:35:33] Um, I know this would have been the case for, um, this girl in particular, but, um, she

[00:35:39] did actually become a little bit more interested and involved in practicing her English when it

[00:35:44] came time to look for a job.

[00:35:46] Um, she wanted a part-time job.

[00:35:48] Her family was encouraging her to get a part-time job.

[00:35:50] So I went through multiple mock interviews with her and I actually took some time to review

[00:35:54] her resume and help her improve that.

[00:35:56] And I found that practicing really did help her improve her confidence.

[00:36:00] Um, and I think a ways teachers can use this is, um, having, having, uh, students practice

[00:36:08] presentations or conversations, um, or like I said, mock interviews, uh, just to further

[00:36:15] immerse student learners.

[00:36:16] I think that would really help build confidence in students, um, and, and allow them to feel

[00:36:20] more comfortable speaking and practicing their English.

[00:36:22] English.

[00:36:23] I actually saw her for the first time after a few years and I was, it was like night and

[00:36:29] day.

[00:36:30] Her, she was so much more confident.

[00:36:32] Her English was so much better.

[00:36:33] And like, she honestly had very little accent.

[00:36:36] It was crazy.

[00:36:37] Um, I think now she's in an accounting program at a college and she's working a part-time

[00:36:42] job.

[00:36:42] So it was, it was really, really nice to see the development from her.

[00:36:45] Um, and you know, just from that, I could just see how improving her confidence just allowed

[00:36:51] her, um, to improve her language skills that much more.

[00:36:56] Yeah.

[00:36:56] Amazing.

[00:36:57] I love that.

[00:36:57] Thanks for some really practical tips.

[00:36:59] And again, you know, there's a lots of ways and even, I know you're not necessarily

[00:37:03] a teacher Asia, but you've still been in that relationship and seen that kind of

[00:37:06] growth and that, you know, that development, which is amazing.

[00:37:09] So, um, just to wrap up then what message would you have kind of overall for our audience

[00:37:13] on how they can best prepare their students for the real world, you know, further education,

[00:37:17] employment, what is the main takeaway that we can share with the audience today, Asia?

[00:37:23] You know, just based off my own experience and what I've seen in, um, in, in the classroom,

[00:37:29] I think that, um, practicing real world scenarios is one of the best ways to get students

[00:37:34] involved and accustomed to, um, and prepared to enter the world of further education and

[00:37:41] employment.

[00:37:41] Um, stimulating these real experiences in the classroom allows students to know what exactly

[00:37:47] they should expect.

[00:37:48] So for example, I mentioned this mock interview thing a couple of times.

[00:37:52] I think, you know, having someone there to ask these interview questions and practice

[00:37:56] that with you, um, makes it so much easier when it comes time to do the real thing.

[00:38:01] Um, I'd also like to say that preparedness equals eventually confidence.

[00:38:07] Um, if you know what to expect and you're confident in your answers, that translates really

[00:38:12] well to, um, interviews that you might do in real life or presentations you might do in

[00:38:17] real life.

[00:38:18] Um, teachers should really focus on covering verbal, verbal communication as well as written

[00:38:24] communication.

[00:38:25] I think both are equally important, um, especially in the business world.

[00:38:28] And I would also argue that it's key to prioritize learning about structured and effective writing,

[00:38:35] because this is something that I've found to be necessary in most workplaces and industries.

[00:38:40] Um, writing is also something that's really essential in school and higher education.

[00:38:44] Um, for example, like essays, reports, and exams.

[00:38:48] So I think, you know, um, first teachers to, uh, ensure that the learners are well-equipped

[00:38:56] and ready, um, to use their English language skills and business English skills in the real

[00:39:03] world is probably the best way to ensure success on both parties.

[00:39:07] Great.

[00:39:08] 100%.

[00:39:08] And I really echo, um, all of these suggestions.

[00:39:12] So thank you so much for sharing this Asia.

[00:39:13] And hopefully now, um, our audience has a lot of advice on how to better support their

[00:39:17] students, how to better prepare them, uh, and how to create amazing business English

[00:39:22] learners who can communicate with confidence.

[00:39:25] Thank you so much, Asia.

[00:39:26] Great to have you.

[00:39:27] Yeah.

[00:39:27] Yeah.

[00:39:27] And, uh, let us know how, um, your listeners can get in touch with you.

[00:39:31] If you'd like to share maybe, um, your contact information, if they want to know more about

[00:39:36] the work you do, or if they even have questions for their students.

[00:39:40] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:39:41] Um, you can reach out to me at asiabernabeau at icloud.com.

[00:39:45] If you have any questions, that's my email.

[00:39:47] Um, I, I mean, I'd love to hear from you guys and offer advice if necessary, but I do

[00:39:53] have to say, you know, thank you so much, Daniel and Faye and Daniel, my, uh, business

[00:39:58] communication skills.

[00:39:59] You played a huge role in that being my business communication professor.

[00:40:03] Um, so I, I, I find this funny.

[00:40:06] This is a bit of a full circle moment for me.

[00:40:08] So I do want to say thank you to both of you for having me on the podcast today.

[00:40:11] I, I mean, great experience.

[00:40:13] I'm really, um, I'm really looking forward to, you know, sharing my, uh, sharing my thoughts

[00:40:19] with everyone and yeah, any questions, please reach out to me.

[00:40:22] That's great.

[00:40:23] Thank you so much.

[00:40:24] Thanks, Asia.

[00:40:24] We really appreciate it.

[00:40:26] Alrighty.

[00:40:26] Thank you so much, Asia, for joining us today.

[00:40:28] It was really interesting to get your perspectives on communication skills and business English

[00:40:32] for employment.

[00:40:33] And, um, I'm sure our listeners can really take a lot from today's episode.

[00:40:38] Um, as always guys, don't forget to follow us on Instagram at ESL talk podcast.

[00:40:42] You can also send us the email ESL talk podcast at gmail.com and you can access all of our

[00:40:48] previous episodes.

[00:40:49] We're almost at a hundred Faye.

[00:40:50] We're almost there at ESL talk.ca.

[00:40:53] So that's the website where you can get everything for free.

[00:40:56] Um, all the previous episodes, um, of course, don't forget to subscribe.

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[00:41:30] So that is it for this week's episode.

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[00:41:34] Thank you so much for listening.

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